In this episode, the team talks about how they got into WordPress, coding, and technology, and they ask some deeper questions about the difference between technical and non-technical people. Is WordPress too technical for some people? Can agency and freelancers can help their clients succeed by encouraging them to try to break their sites? How does curiosity and confidence develop a mindset of success in technology? We also discuss what sets Kadence Support apart from other WordPress providers and why we have to go the extra mile for our customers. We also talk about what’s happening with Kadence Shop Kit, Kadence Blocks, and the entire Kadence solution online documentation.
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Timestamps and Links
- 0:00 Intro
- 1:25 Ben’s background and how he got into web development
- 3:27 How Hannah got started with Kadence
- 5:27 Why Ben knew Hannah could be great with Kadence, even without a tech background
- 8:51 Building relationships with Kadence customers
- 9:29 Is WordPress too hard for “non-technical” people?
- 13:09 Kathy’s start in the tech world, solving problems as educational experience
- 15:08 WordPress’ flexibility and capabilities lends to the myth that it’s hard
- 16:09 That openness can also lead to curiosity and exploration
- 17:04 The mindset of curiosity & demystifying tech
- 19:43 Learning the tech is worth it. How encouraging people to break things (safely) encourages creativity and growth.
- 22:10 Agencies that want to protect the site from the client.
- 23:48 Where do you go for answers?
- 24:42 Kadence support philosophy
- 26:23 What’s upcoming with Kadence Shop Kit, Kadence Blocks, and more
Transcript for Episode 13
Kathy: Welcome to episode 13 of the Kadence Beat. This is going to either be our best episode ever, or the most unlucky episode, but I think we’re gonna make this the best one ever. What do you think. Let’s try.
Ben: Sounds good.
Hannah: Sounds better than unlucky.
Kathy: It does. We’re gonna turn the tables on number 13 and make it a lucky number. How’s that?
I wanna talk about technical versus non-technical, and how people pigeonhole themselves into this idea that something is too technical, something is non-technical, maybe not attempting to learn something or stretch themselves because they think it might be too hard.
This kind of happened sort of in the background. Over the last week I started talking about, you know, how I got into tech with a few people. And I started remembering I’m not classically trained as a technical person. I did not go to college for computer science. I learned all of this pretty much on my own, took a couple of programming classes because I wanted to learn how to do certain things.
And then I started thinking about you guys and you guys both kind of come from non-technical backgrounds, too. And I thought, Hey, here we are. On the forefront, the leading edge, the bleeding edge of WordPress innovation. And we’re like non-technical people. What are we doing here guys? so Ben, you weren’t trained in programming at all. What was your background before you started building sites?
Ben: Yeah. I went to school for media arts and photography. So I did a lot of photojournalism and I majored in an arts degree, which was primarily in design and animation. We did do some film stuff and we did lots of Photoshop design stuff at the time. But, animation would’ve been a pretty big part of it.
And no coding. Yeah, I didn’t, didn’t go for coding. For me, the coding part all came out of, wanting to start building websites and being interested in that. And that started pretty early. I started using Microsoft Front Page, which was an ancient, basically like a Microsoft created a program that was similar to Word where you could kind of use a Word-like experience to design a webpage and then publish it.
And it would spit out HTML and CSS. And I primarily was doing that because I was doing photography and I wanted to get my photos online somehow. And so that got me into web development. My initial entry into learning CSS was actually changing the CSS files that Front Page spit out because I wanted to do something and then I’d go and look, and I’d spend the time to just figure out what is this doing and how does it work?
I would’ve saved myself hundreds and hundreds of hours if I had gone to school. So I don’t, what I don’t wanna say is like, don’t go to school. It’s not worth it. Like no, you can learn a lot faster and learn a lot of stuff a lot easier. If you do take classes and go to school, this isn’t the way to do it by any means.
But it’s just like how I did is just curious. Once I had a site for my own photos, then other people started asking me to make them a website. And it just kept being fun. And I liked doing it, and I liked what was happening and I liked getting the results, and that led me down the path.
And then since I’ve taken some online, classes Treehouse. being one of the places I did some classes to learn some different fundamental stuff. But the majority of my coding knowledge comes from trial and error, and lots of loss of time looking at other people’s code and dissecting how and dissecting how people are doing things.
Kathy: And you dragged Hannah into this world of WordPress and coding, cuz we all know Hannah is a midwife and that is your vocation is what you wanted to do. But all of a sudden now you’re the non-technical support person. Who’s whipping out CSS left and right and teaching people how to do really technical things. How has that experience been for you?
Hannah: It’s been good. Yeah, so I actually I’ve been working with Ben longer than I’ve been a midwife. I was pursuing nursing for a bit and on put that on pause and was just waiting tables and looking for a means to travel. And I was just 21, you know, just didn’t really have a plan for my life.
And Ben called asked if I wanted to work for him. And at that point Virtue was like six months in, and I didn’t even really understand what Ben did. I was like, I think you got the wrong girl. Like, I don’t even know what WordPress is. Like, I didn’t know what the widget was, what the plugin, I mean, I remember just learning all these basic words and I had no knowledge of any of it.
And Ben knew that, And so he took me on and I was like, yeah, I mean, if I can work remote, then I’ll work for you. And, so he spent a lot of time training me and I watched 8 million tutorials and just answered so many questions. Tried. I just remember like, It, it was my strategy in the beginning to answer a question by asking another question, like, can I get some more information on that and just try and slowly dissect things and, you know, building my own websites.
And I did a lot of Treehouse tutorials as well. I think Ben’s hope for me was to become a developer like him, but that was not… I didn’t have that in me. But yeah, I’ve learned definitely some HTML and CSS along the way. And I don’t know that I would necessarily consider myself a techy person, but I guess that’s what we’re breaking here is the mold of techy versus non techy.
Cuz I guess by the world standards, I am technically a technical person. So, yeah, but never did I see myself here for sure.
Kathy: Well, Ben, you must have seen something in Hannah where you knew that she could handle this, even though she didn’t, maybe at the beginning think that she could. What was it about your sister that led you to realize that she would be a great technical support person and help you?
Ben: Yeah, I think that’s tricky. I knew she was very non-technical and we’re gonna use this word and we should probably try to define it as like, she, she wouldn’t have considered herself as being someone who understands technology or even has the curiosity to dive in and be like, I just wanna know how this works, cuz it’s bothering me that I don’t know.
And I think what I, what I was mostly seeing is, I know she will work hard. And hiring is hard and so I was thinking, I know she can figure this out because in my mind, anyone can figure out WordPress. There’s no barrier to like getting into WordPress. And I knew that regardless of how far she would want to go, that would be more dependent on like if it intrigued her enough to dive further and further and further in versus can she figure out the job, which is primarily, was I need you to do support and help people like you, who don’t think that they’re very technical do WordPress. But I know that WordPress, it’s just learning.
And I know that web development is just a matter of sitting down and learning with the tools. And then how far you go, that’s gonna depend on just if you have a desire and a passion and it’s intriguing enough that you want to figure it out and there won’t be a time at which you’re like, no, this is too hard.
You’re just like, no, I’m gonna figure this out because want to know. So to me, I approached it as like my first two hires were very, very untechnical people. Kevin who works with Kadence right now was also, he’s a mechanic by trade. I mean, he was doing auto mechanics. I mean, he barely had a computer.
Especially when you’re thinking about support, like it’s communication skills, it’s willingness to learn, willingness to be wrong and, to empathize with customers and then doing your best to help them. As well as like doing the training so that you can.
And again, like, to me, I just think so many things, especially in web development can seem, scary, technical. Like, I don’t understand how the web works or any of that stuff. You don’t need to understand exactly how typing in a domain name reaches this certain server that then delivers this information. All of that, you can dive in and learn it if you’re curious, but like just to be doing web development stuff, there’s so many tools. If you’ve ever worked in a word processing program or like chatted in instant messenger, there’s so many things that you always have to learn some UI and some tools and WordPress is one of those things. If you’ve ever done any kind of thing in a program like you can learn. And so I think it’s more about that knowing that she could, and that’s why I wanted to pull her in.
And I knew that she’d be good on the, the empathy and, the communication part.
Kathy: Yeah. Just what you said Hannah, about. If I didn’t know the answer, I would collect more information. So you’re building more of a bridge then with the customer, and really diving into where they’re at. They might say, this isn’t working right. But maybe it’s working just right, but just from their perspective, it’s not working right the way they expect. And so asking more questions like that and being able to empathize and really kind of meet them where they’re at is the ideal way of helping someone who thinks maybe they can’t do something or that something isn’t working the way they expect.
Hannah: Yeah, for sure. And we were so much smaller back then, you know, like we were able to kind of build relationships with people. Because well, a, we only had like one forum versus now we have so many forums for all of our products and it was just me or Ben and we would respond within an hour or two hours. And it was a lot of the same people that were asking questions. So we did kind of get to build some relationships and it’s fun to see some of those people who are still big Kadence fans. Now that I like almost feel like I know or feel like we’re friends because we spend a lot of time communicating on the forums.
Kathy: Yeah, that’s so cool. This turns into really building relationships with people, which I think is in just incredible. So I’ve seen some questions that people have asked on social media, in the WordPress circles where people would say, okay, I have this friend they’re older. They need to do this website, which tools should I suggest. And I’ve seen people who have been using WordPress for a very long time, say, oh, well, don’t have them use WordPress. It’s too hard. And I… What what’s wrong here. If there’s something wrong here, it shouldn’t be this hard. It’s not this hard. Why do some people think that maybe WordPress or the new Gutenberg editor or blocks or any of this, why do they think that this is only for technical people and what is a technical person?
I guess that’s my loaded question. Is WordPress too hard for someone who has never built a website before? And where is that line of you have to be this technical in order to use WordPress if so?
Ben: I think generally, like when we say, oh, like that’s a techy person, it’s someone who’s, who’s very, very interested in technology and thus they know a lot about it. And what’s funny is, I’ve met lots of like technical people who, know nothing about code and all of that.
They’re just like, I want the newest iPhone and I want the technology and I want to know about like all the features. But they don’t know the underlying code or like they’re not a developer in the sense of, they understand all the really technical things that go behind all of that technology.
It’s not an issue of like, are you a certain person as much as like, are you willing to learn and invest the time it’s going to take to learn? Cuz I think you can learn anything if you’re willing to, you have a desire, and you’re willing to spend the time. What you come against is if you’re recommending this for somebody, you know, an older person. Do you know if that older person is willing to learn?
Because there’s a lot of people who literally the moment, it gets hard, the moment that there is like a, I don’t know what to do next. They go, oh, this is too technical. I can’t do this. And so, if that’s what’s coming against, like, there’s just very little options in the world, that’s going to work for them because they’re eventually going to come up against a program or a UI or whatever.
If this is for you, I would tell anyone, don’t listen to that lie of this is too technical. Don’t let that run you or control you. With anything that you’re learning, you’re going to hit a point where it gets frustrating, but that’s part of the process where you gotta go, okay, I’ve got to watch some more tutorials. I’ve got to do the work here, and I can figure this out. and I think in a situation where people are saying, don’t use WordPress, whatever. Well compare it with what other options. Maybe you can say there are easier ways to create a page on the internet than diving into WordPress, but that doesn’t make them better or the right option. It just makes them potentially easier. It’s also really easy to pay someone a lot of money to build your website, but that doesn’t make it better either. it just makes it expensive. That’s a hard thing to say don’t use WordPress or use WordPress because of technical ability. I think that would be like one of the lowest things on my list when deciding whether or not to use WordPress.
Kathy: Yeah, agreed. Obviously it’s random social conversation about the person who was considering a website, wasn’t even a part of this conversation.
So how are we guessing what they’re willing to learn? To me, learning ends up being, I need to solve this problem. There’s a problem. And I need a solution and I’m just going to, you know, be like a dog on a bone until I find that solution. Right? And that’s all of my technical knowledge has come from that. Even when I realized like the first programming class I ever took, they, this company that I was working for, they’re like, okay, you’re going to this Java class and I’m. Okay. I’ll go to a Java class and there weren’t many people there and I was asking questions like, so that curly bracket thing means that’s where the function started.
I was doing Active Server Pages back then. And so I had to know VB script, which was just, it was just horrible language. But once you understand one language, all of the rest of the languages, you can at least understand what they’re trying to get at.
And then you understand how coding documentation then works. So as long as you have one opportunity, and try to solve that one problem, you then start seeing that you can solve lots of different problems. I remember when that was impossible. And I did it. And I got through it and now look at all the other things that I learned.
And once you can have that kind of perspective, you get this experience of confidence. And I think that’s a lot of, you know, like Hannah, you said Ben is like extremely confident. I think that’s a lot of why Ben’s confident is cuz he solved problems. He solved big problems. He solved problems that people told him he couldn’t solve.
He solved problems that people didn’t even know they had that problem and he’s already got the solution for it. And so that, that happens once or twice. And then all of a sudden it’s like that, that line of technical versus non-technical of being too complicated versus super easy. It’s just blurred.
Nothing is beyond your ability because you remember solving something that you thought you couldn’t do. And so I think that’s one of the reasons why I’m so excited about Kadence is because it does that for people. People come in thinking that they can’t build something, but then all of the tools are there.
They’re intuitive. I’m not really writing any code. And it gives people that initial taste of confidence where then the world is now their oyster, because they’ve, they’ve done it once.
Hannah: Yeah, totally. I think that part of where the intimidation of WordPress comes in is that it is open source. And so there is so much you can do with it. It’s like what the developers are using. Right. And so while you can come in and anybody can install Kadence, install a starter template and then have all your own content with a couple clicks.
It’s like, I think it’s intimidating, cuz people are, are also hearing with WordPress you can completely recode the whole thing. Whereas like Wix and Squarespace are marketed more towards the people who want just the starter template. You know what I mean? And so I think, I think maybe there’s not enough emphasis on, “Hey, you can do this if you’re a non-coder, too.” Instead it’s like, Hey, if you’re a coder come and completely revamp the entire backend of this. Which is so cool that WordPress does that, but I think for the people that I talk to, when they’re looking to build their website and they hear of WordPress, they’re just like, ah, I don’t know, code so I can’t do it.
And I’m like, you don’t actually need to know code, but there is this myth that goes on and I think it could be because of that. But.
Kathy: sure. Well, WordPress kind of grew up in that way. Well, the internet kind of grew up in that way. I mean, I, the. One thing that started me learning about the internet was I was the marketing person and the internet guy. Was scary and nobody wanted to talk to him and you, you guys know I’ll talk to anybody, right?
So they put me in charge of talking to him cuz nobody wanted to. And he was like the most frustrating human being on the planet that I understood why nobody wanted to talk to him and I needed something done and he didn’t wanna do it. And so I figured out, and then I, then I saw, this is HTM. This is all he’s doing.
And he’s being this difficult about this. Well, I’m just gonna do it then. And so I would bypass him, which caused, you know, a whole furor, but it was like that need to get something done and the willingness to deal with whatever it takes in order to get there. Once you have that, it opens up your whole world.
It’s sort of like a mindset thing. Isn’t it?
Ben: I think it is a huge mindset thing. I think the internet has made everything so easy. to learn about and to get a working knowledge of. If you’re willing to search, and watch tutorials. I would put this challenge out there, like think of something that you’ve put in your brain as like, oh, that’s too complicated.
And just take 10 minutes to see if you can get a working knowledge of it. Because with the YouTube videos out there and stuff like there’s. There’s just nothing that is that complicated that you can’t get a working knowledge of it. And , like you’re saying, it’s like, once you start to unmask the like, oh, that’s too complicated.
And it goes into this really dark and scary place in your brain where it’s, I can’t go there. Once you start to like reveal, look inside there. You’re like, oh, all of this stuff is really not that complicated. Once you just start to like shine some light on it and. Then it just, starts to make sense and starts to build on itself of like, oh, because of how that works.
This works. I mean, I was thinking about this before the conversation, like what are things that I’ve always thought were really, really complicated? and it’s just funny, like how quickly you can demystify all these things. a couple years ago, I remember making a comment like man, wireless charging, how does that even work?
That’s crazy. And someone was like, that’s actually easy how it works. And then that was like, oh, again, another thing that I’ve put into this, like how in the world do we send electricity through the air to charge a phone wirelessly, all that kind of stuff to. Oh, actually like, yeah, this kind of makes sense.
and I think it’s that kind of curiosity and just willingness to be like, yeah, I’m, I’m just willing to watch tutorials. And I know that I can figure this out. That is, is going to like, not only open up like your ability to build websites or work on WordPress or anything like that, but just.
Being curious like that is, is gonna change your life. There’s just so many very interesting things happening, being done and things to learn about right now that you can just do so quickly that I, I think once you get into it, I feel like it’s just something that’ll keep going and going and going.
Like, I wanna learn more because it’s so fascinating.
Kathy: is it worth it? Where is the line of say, you’re a business owner and you need a website. How much should you dive into that? How much should you hire out? I mean, obviously , that answer is gonna be different for every person, but does learning about technology and learning how to build out WordPress, even if you’re just learning starter templates, does it help a business owner in the long run? Is that, challenge of breaking through that too complicated barrier, does that help in other areas?
Ben: Yeah. I mean, to me, I think a business owner should be trying to learn every aspect of their business, including their website. I understand if you want to hire a professional to build it for you, but in the end, the more you know, the better your website will be. It just flat out like the better you’ll be able to communicate.
If you have another person helping you do it, or just the better, you’ll be able to portray what it is. You need to portray on the website to your customers and and be able to do things. I’ve done a lot of freelance and I always tell the owners, look, I’m gonna set up this website for you. And I have a backup and you, it’s gonna be really, really hard for you to break it.
So you need to go in there and you need to just start messing around with stuff. because as soon as you start doing that, you’re gonna go, oh, like this actually makes a lot of sense. And we’ll have like, meetings where I’ll be like, see, this is how you do stuff, but I’m like, but you’re not gonna remember this cuz we’re in a meeting and I’m showing you something. And then five minutes later, you’re gonna be like, I don’t remember what he showed me, but I was like, listen, all you gotta do is be like, Hey, I broke the website and I was like, just please try, try to break it cuz it’s not gonna end the world.
I have a backup, everything’s fine. But try to break it because in doing so you are gonna get so much more confidence to go in there and be like, oh, if I wanna update something, I can do that now. If I wanna put up something about a sale or if I wanna be able to change some text, I can just do that. A website is just a marketing tool. And if you don’t understand the website, it’s really hard to use it as a marketing tool. It just becomes this static thing. But if you do understand the website, then all of a sudden it can actually function as a marketing tool and you can start thinking of it that way.
All of the things I know about marketing need to be used, and I have a marketing tool, I have this website. Versus like, I have a person and I want to see if they can, you know, do what I want to do. This is something that happens all the time. a business owner would’ve come to me and been like, you know, hey, like I wanna do something like this.
And I’m like, if you, if you actually knew how all this stuff works, you would actually be asking me, I want to do this. Because you are not even thinking in terms of what options are available to you. And I’ll usually be like, no, that’s not the right way, you shouldn’t do that. Actually, you should do this over here. And they’re like, oh man, if I’d known, we could do that, I would’ve told you to do that months ago. That’s the curiosity thing. Like if you dive in and just learn a little bit about your systems, your website. Figure it out, learn it. And it’s just gonna be such a better tool for you if you know it.
Kathy: You know, that’s so brilliant because I I’ve talked to so many agency people where they’re like trying to protect the website from the client. You know, they’re trying to lock things down because they’re afraid the client’s going to do something terrible to the website. It’s this weird thing when you’re building a site for someone, because it’s almost like you have a child together of this website.
Right. But it’s really, It’s as the agency owner, it’s not your child, you’ve created this thing and now it’s time for it to go to its rightful parent. Right. And to help that parent take care of the child of the website. You know, that’s a terrible analogy, but it’s kind of true. I always felt that way when I developed sites, I’d feel really like, oh God, please don’t do that to the site.
You know what I mean? Cause there’s this pride of ownership of what you’ve developed, and you have this fear of wanting to protect the child and make sure it’s okay all the time. But in actuality, I think you’re entirely right. Part of your job as an agency owner is to help your client be a better caretaker and be a better custodian of that site. Because that’s what’s gonna make the connection to the customer because you as the agency owner, you don’t know anything about the customer other than what your clients told you. So I really love that philosophy and I think that’s absolutely brilliant. So I’m with you. You need to learn. You have to become technical. You have to go through that fear. You have to become what you think you cannot in order to really grow.
Ben: Yep. And, and grow your business or grow your subscribers or whatever it is you’re trying to do on the web. Just dive in and learn more and it’s gonna pay off.
Kathy: That’s brilliant. Well, one cool thing about WordPress is that there are a lot of people who are using it and the community aspect of it means that not only online, are there a lot of answers, but once we get back to being in person, much more meetups, WordCamps, especially the local meetups that I’ve ever been to and watched like the people who run the meetups, they really get hands on with specific problems with people.
And that has I think, contributed to the growth in making WordPress easier for people is, is all of the meetups. So I’m really hoping that we get back to more of those. Now when you guys have immediate needs for solving a problem and you don’t have an answer and you don’t know where to go for an answer, what do you do?
Hannah: YouTube Google. Is there another answer?
Ben: Yeah. If I can’t find it through a Google search, then there’s people that I know in different fields that I’ll contact them. And that I think that’s important, too. For everyone who’s using Kadence, like there’s the Kadence support. That’s where it ends up.
Like we get your questions and a lot of them don’t have to do with Kadence at all. I mean, we get the design questions, the marketing questions, the how do I grow my business kind of questions. How do I get more people on my website kind of questions. And we do our best to answer a lot of those, you know, where we can and as best we can. Being that we offer a theme and so it’s kind of a framework package, we get all of the WordPress questions too. Like how do I do this in WordPress? We’re constantly being, like, oh, Hmm. How would I do that in WordPress? Okay, let me go see if there’s a plugin for that.
Hannah: And for WooCommerce.
Ben: I mean, we do a lot of that. All the time. Like, oh, I found this thing. This could work for you. And so I think that that’s something to throw out there. Like, We have to have some boundaries. Otherwise, all we would do is support, but our boundaries are a lot less than what a lot of other companies are.
We’ll answer a lot of those questions about, what’s the best way to do this type of stuff or, you know, do you have any suggestions for this or just your basic WordPress questions? You don’t need to know what’s WordPress, and what’s theme, and what’s WooCommerce. Sometimes you just need to ask the question. And so, yeah, we’re there for that.
Kathy: Excellent. Yeah. And I know that our Facebook group is growing like crazy. It’s so active. And there’s new people, so many new people every day.
Hannah: Every single day.
Kathy: It is just extremely dynamic so that, so the Kadence community has been so impressive. There’s so many people in that group who take time to answer even basic questions. So it’s, it’s pretty exciting to see, what’s happening there.
We’ve got a lot of stuff coming out with Kadence. Shop Kit is really close for final?
Ben: Yeah. Yeah. When we first started with like Shop Kit 2.0, like what was gonna come out in. Has like tripled in terms of like, well, I was just gonna go here and release 2.0, and then it’s like, no, I’m gonna do this too. Actually. Now I’m gonna do this too. And oh, let’s add this in. And so finding that stopping point of like all the new features that I’m putting in has been tricky to find the right balance.
Cause in part it’s like. you know, this is a solution, but then people are gonna want to use it this way. So we need to add this feature so that it can be used that way. And, , so it’s grown a lot from what it was gonna be, but I’m pretty excited about where it is right now. And, there will be, at least one more, you know, beta release and then we’ll be prepping our documentation and website and everything to have a full Shop Kit 2.0 release coming soon. And yeah, we’re doing a lot of work on our massive rewrite of Kadence Blocks, which that will be 2.5 and I don’t have a date for that cuz it is massive undertaking and the way that things work with WordPress, when you update a plugin, You have to tell it, all the new files you’ve added to the plugin.
Whenever I do the 2.5, I’m literally going to tell SVN, remove all files and then start completely over because every single file is changed. It’s a, it’s a massive, massive update. And we’ll have lots of betas before that comes out. But it, I like the main thing is structurally internally. We’re, we’re gonna build a better structure, what we have for blocks and the block plugin. So that’s exciting.
Kathy: That is extremely exciting. And, we’re doing a documentation push. We’ve been pushing so much code and our small team, our growing team has been focusing recently with the sort of summer lull and rewriting some documentation.
Ben: Yeah. And with that, we, you know, tried to do a better way of handling how we do documentation for all of our products. cuz we have a pretty confusing setup right now with like different knowledge bases located in different parts of our website and they’re not connected and you can’t really search between the two.
So. That’s exciting. That’ll be coming up really soon where we will have like a single place where you can search all of the products, but you can also still search within a single product, and just like a cleaner and then doing some updates to that docs too.
Kathy: I saw that and I’m so excited. I’m super excited about our documentation. Because it’s just helping people do so many more things with Kadence. There’s so much you can do with Kadence and just showing some more examples of what people can do.
I’m, I’m entirely thrilled. So lots of fun things happening around, the Kadence ecosphere. Very cool. Any final thoughts?
Ben: Just be curious and… don’t let anything out there be too complicated for you.
Hannah: And if it is, we’re here for you.
Kathy: We are, I swear, the Kadence support team is one of the most dynamic and. Curious and problem solving, focused support teams I’ve ever seen. So just a really cool team to be a part of. So thanks for letting me hang around, you guys. Thanks to everyone who is listening to the Kadence Beat and for all of your feedback. I get feedback. People tell me all the time that they listen. I’m like leave us a note, drop a note in the comments, drop us a review. We would love to hear from you. So thanks for listening. And we’ll talk to you next time.